doodtrainen of tijdelijk stoppen...

[Il Loco]

Ik zit thuis met een onsteking in de onderrug/heup gewricht, komt door de ziekte van brechterev wat erg heerst in mijn familie.

Fucked up maar goed, is het verstandig om door te gaan met kracht trainen, squaten, deadliften, etc..

Of is het beter om rustiger aan te doen en wellicht iets anders te proberen voor nu...?

[chief108]

geen idee
ben geen arts

maar kijk ff op http://www.bechterewforum.nl/

sterkte jongen...

[flip-mo]

gewoon doortrianen.. zou als ik jou was nog een stukje intensiever gaan trainen!

[chief108]

Spondylitis Ankylosans - beter gekend als de ziekte van Bechterew - is een chronische ontsteking van de gewrichten in de wervelkolom. Dit leidt tot een verkalking van de tussenwervelschijven, waardoor de patiënt letterlijk "verstijft". Het is een ongeneeslijke ziekte, en de enige manier om het verlies aan beweeglijkheid tegen te gaan is precies... bewegen.
.

[ataraxia]

Bekende vraag :)

Ik ben er zelf ook nog niet uit, heb zelf al 7 jaar geregeld ontstekingen, maar het is te weinig/ te a-typisch voor de reumatoloog om de diagnose te stellen. Huisarts weet niet wat het anders kan zijn, dus mijn enige aanspreekpunt hierover is een fysiotherapeut geweest.

En die zei dat training goed is, belangrijk om goede rugspieren te ontwikkelen en soepelheid te vergroten. Ik mocht zelfs met pijnstillers door trainen... Maar. Wat mij ook niet duidelijk is is of dat door de pijn heen trainen gaat om de stijfheids/vergroeiingspijn (waar ik niet echt last van heb) of ook de daadwerkelijke ontstekingspijn... Ik heb soms de indruk dat te zware training de ontstekingspijn verergert, en ook heb ik de indruk dat ik meer last heb van spierpijn als er ontstekingen actief zijn. Maar of dat ergens op slaat weet ik niet.

[Il Loco]

Bekende vraag :)

Ik ben er zelf ook nog niet uit, heb zelf al 7 jaar geregeld ontstekingen, maar het is te weinig/ te a-typisch voor de reumatoloog om de diagnose te stellen. Huisarts weet niet wat het anders kan zijn, dus mijn enige aanspreekpunt hierover is een fysiotherapeut geweest.

En die zei dat training goed is, belangrijk om goede rugspieren te ontwikkelen en soepelheid te vergroten. Ik mocht zelfs met pijnstillers door trainen... Maar. Wat mij ook niet duidelijk is is of dat door de pijn heen trainen gaat om de stijfheids/vergroeiingspijn (waar ik niet echt last van heb) of ook de daadwerkelijke ontstekingspijn... Ik heb soms de indruk dat te zware training de ontstekingspijn verergert, en ook heb ik de indruk dat ik meer last heb van spierpijn als er ontstekingen actief zijn. Maar of dat ergens op slaat weet ik niet.

Goede vraag, normaal gaat squatten me altijd goed af, maar sinds ik last heb van die onsteking heb ik daarna altijd ontzettend spierpijn in mijn benen. Maar of dat dan toch direct daarmee in verband staat is moeilijk in te schatten..

Maar goed we gaan gewoon door, en als het niet meer kan, dan pas stop ik

[FOCUS]

dr is natuurlijk wel een verschil tussen bewegen en trainen.
Blijven trainen, maar met wat lichtere gewichten wellicht?

en mogelijk een od van vit c oid???

[ataraxia]

Ik mocht bjj trainen...

Vitamine c? Hoezo? Het is geen gewoon immuun probleem, maar een auto-immuun probleem namelijk...

[FOCUS]

ja daar zeg je wat
ik kwam dit es tegen:
The Ascorbate Effect in Infectious and Autoimmune Diseases



Robert F. Cathcart, M.D.

127 Second Street, #4

Los Altos, CA 94022

650-949-2822

http://www.orthomed.com





The vitamin C effects are all the usual effects of the usual small doses of vitamin C and also the effects of the moderate and usual high doses of the vitamin C. The ascorbate effect is where massive doses of vitamin C are used where we are mostly throwing away the vitamin C for the electrons carried. With massive amounts of ascorbate it is possible to neutralize the massive amounts of free radicals generated mostly by the damage to mitochondria of infectious diseases, allergies, and injuries. Under most conditions the electrons carried by free radical scavengers come from the metabolism of glucose in the mitochondria. The amount of electrons from this source, when the mitochondria are not damaged, are sufficient when we are well to neutralize the free radicals of living. However, when we are sick and especially where the mitochondria are damaged, the free radicals overwhelm the mitochondrial ability to make electrons available. In these cases vitamin C in massive amounts can be the source of the necessary numbers of electrons to eliminate most of the free radicals of diseases. The ordinary doses of vitamin C, vitamin E, beta carotene, etc. cannot suffice. Any inflammation is evidence that the free radicals have not been adequately eliminated.



In 1969, I discovered that the amount of ascorbic acid tolerated orally without loosening of stools (a benign diarrhea) was somewhat proportional to the free radical toxicity of the condition being treated. The sicker a person was, the more ascorbic acid they would tolerate orally without it causing diarrhea. In a person with an otherwise normal GI tract when they were well, would tolerate 5 to 15 grams of ascorbic acid orally in divided doses without diarrhea. With a mild cold 30 to 60 grams; with a bad cold, 100 grams; with a flu, 150 grams; and with mononucleosis, viral pneumonia, etc. 200 grams or more of ascorbic acid would be tolerated orally without diarrhea. The process of finding what dose will cause diarrhea and will eliminate the acute symptoms, I call titrating to bowel tolerance.



When at the peak of the cold it is possible to take 100 grams of ascorbate in divided doses in 24 hours, I call it a 100 Gram Cold.



Sodium ascorbate intravenously never causes diarrhea in any dose. The diarrhea of ascorbic acid taken orally is caused by a hypertonic situation in the rectum. Intravenous sodium ascorbate actually increases bowel tolerance to ascorbic acid orally if administered at the same time.



The ascorbate effect is a threshold effect. Symptoms are usually neutralized when a dose of about 90% or more of bowel tolerance is reached with oral ascorbic acid. Intravenous sodium ascorbate is about 2 ½ times more powerful than ascorbic acid by mouth and since for all practical purposes huge doses of sodium ascorbate are non toxic, whatever dose necessary to eliminate free radical driven symptoms should be given.



The mathematical formulas that describe redox potential involve logarithms. Logarithms go low, low, low and then rapidly go high. The ascorbate effect acts at a threshold dose as would be anticipated from the logarithms in the formula when a reducing redox potential is forced into the oxidized tissues involved in the disease.



Example or the Common Cold



Most people have had the experience of feeling that they are catching a cold one evening but then wake up the next morning all well. What has happened here is that either antibodies from a previous cold wipe out the virus, or the white cells in the nose and throat destroy the virus by phagocytosis. These white cells need a little vitamin
C to perform phagocytosis. If the virus damages enough mitochondria in the nose and throat to produce enough free radicals to destroy all the vitamin C then the white cells shut down and that is when you wake up knowing you will be sick for a week or so. A condition of acute induced scurvy exists in the nose and throat.



Small doses of vitamin C taken as a maintenance dose will prevent a certain percentage of colds because this acute induced scurvy is harder to induce.; Once the free radical cascade is induced in the nose and throat small and moderate doses of vitamin will not cure the cold. However, moderate doses will prevent the spread of the acute induced scurvy into the sinuses, ears, and bronchial tubes so complications will be prevented. It is interesting to note than moderate doses by reducing the free radicals systemically will slow down the production of new antibodies; therefore, the basic, uncomplicated mild disease, unsick condition, will last a little longer than an uncomplicated untreated cold.



However, if massive doses, (usually bowel tolerance doses of ascorbic acid will suffice, but not always, sometimes intravenous sodium ascorbate is necessary) are driven into the nose and throat sufficient to neutralize the free radicals and eliminate the acute induced scurvy in the nose and throat, the white cells come out fighting mad and destroy the virus.



Humeral Immunity Reduced by Massive Amounts of Ascorbate



Massive doses of ascorbate augment cellular immunity while reducing humeral immunity. Clinically, the affinity of antibodies for their antigen is augmented by free radicals or an oxidative redox potential. I hypothesize that the single disulfide bond that holds the light chain of the antibody to the heavy chain is strengthened in an oxidative redox potential. Single disulfide bonds similarly hold all the other receptor sites of the immune system together.



I further hypothesize that the immune system receptor sites are under some normal stress and that under a reducing redox potential there is more of a tendency for the disulfide bond to break into two sulfhydryls which incapacitates the antigen bonding site. This would be a simple, neat mechanism whereby the humeral immune system would be turned off when there was no injury to the body. Any injury to cells would damage mitochondria, produce free radicals, induce an oxidative redox potential and turn on the immune system. While it appears from all the scientific work done on the immune system, its turn on is more complicated than this hypothesis, this hypothesis would explain many of the clinical effects of massive doses of ascorbate.



This hypothesis would explain why symptoms of hay fever, asthma and anaphylaxis are blocked or ameliorated by massive doses of ascorbate. It is pointed out that when a person is given penicillin or other antibiotics, they are sick and have oxidative redox potential in various parts of the body. This oxidative redox potential turns on the antibodies and the penicillin, or etc., can be recognized as a foreign body. In my experience, massive doses of ascorbate given along with penicillin prevent the anaphylactic and other allergic reactions to penicillin.



Ascorbate Treatment of Viral Hepatitis



In my experience acute viral hepatitis, A, B, C, non AB, etc., are all cured by massive amounts of ascorbate given over a few days intravenously. Chronic viral hepatitis is a different story. It is such a different story that something other that just a continuing viral infection must be going on. I think it is possible that chronic liver damage releases chemicals from the interior of the liver cells that cause an autoimmune like situation to be turned on. Chronic hepatitis, like that diagnosed as chronic hepatitis C, can be vastly ameliorated by continuing high doses of ascorbic acid by mouth, alpha lipoic acid (thank you Bert Berkson), selenium, vitamin E, silymarin, and strict restriction of sugar.



Chronic Fatigue Syndrome



I practiced medicine in Incline Village, Nevada between 1970 and 1980. There I saw many mononucleosis and bad flu cases. All responded to massive doses of ascorbate. I never saw an acute viral disease develop into chronic fatigue. Shortly after I left Incline, the chronic fatigue syndrome was identified by Dr Paul Cheney in 1983. A friend, the dentist in Incline, told me that none of my old massive vitamin C takers got chronic fatigue syndrome. I admit that this observation is not hard science but it is interesting.



Chronic fatigue syndrome is ameliorated by continuing bowel tolerance doses of ascorbic acid but these patients must be worked up for candida, parasites, food and chemical sensitivities, hypothyroidism, T4 resistence, etc., and treated appropriately. The nutritional program should include no sugar, low carbohydrates, elimination of all foods they are allergic to, chemicals, zinc, manganese, chromium, selenium, cod liver oil, vitamin E, multiple Bs, sometimes IM B12, folic acid and multiple Bs, along with the massive doses of C.



Ebola and Other Hemorrhagic Fevers, Nipah Virus and Etc.



All of these diseases produce massive amounts of free radicals. These hemorrhagic fevers are examples of probably 500 gram diseases. These diseases are so toxic, produce so many free radicals, that they rapidly produce not only a localized acute induced scurvy but a systemic induced scurvy. Shortly. collagen fibers begin to break down and bleeding is induced throughout the body. These cases must be treated with massive amount of sodium ascorbate intravenously immediately at the beginning of the disease. The rate of administration should be rapidly increased until the fever and other acute symptoms are diminished. My guess at a starting dose would be at a rate of at least 240 grams of sodium ascorbate per 24 hours. Do not be cheap. Give them vitamin E, B vitamins, zinc, manganese, chromium, selenium, EPA, DHA, etc. I have never treated a hemorrhagic fever case.



SARS is just another flu virus, possibly more toxic than most flues so give them intravenous sodium ascorbate. Probably 120 grams of sodium ascorbate intravenously per 24 hours would do it but give more according to the symptoms. I have treated at lease a thousand cases of flu and never so much as hospitalize one case.



Distemper and Kennel Fever



Although dogs are ascorbate producing animals, it is possible that a very toxic disease will overcome their ability to produce ascorbate. Wendell Belfield, DVM, of San Jose, CA has been curing dogs of distemper and kennel fever for 20 years with massive doses of sodium ascorbate intravenously. The dog just needs to be helped out for a few days with the intravenous and then he takes over himself.



Poliomyelitis



The first physician who used massive amounts of sodium ascorbate intravenously on serious viral diseases was Fred Klenner, M.D. of Reidsville, North Carolina. He published curing 60 cases of polio out of 60 cases with intravenous C. See Southern Medicine and Surgery, July 1949, p. 209. The whole article is on my website http://www.orthomed.com/polio.htm



Bacterial Infections



Bacterial infections cause symptoms, suppress the immune system, and cause allergic reactions to antibiotics by way of free radicals. While these diseases should be treated with the appropriate antibiotics, they should also be treated with massive doses of ascorbate. Massive doses of ascorbate clinically seem to broaden the spectrum of activity of antibiotics against resistant bacteria.



Autoimmune Diseases



My experience with some autoimmune diseases, particularly lupus, is that ascorbate in massive doses is very helpful. The following is my theory as to why. This theory involves many simplifications and probably some ideas that turn out inaccurate but are a way of thinking about the problem of autoimmune diseases that explain the role of massive doses of ascorbate. It also gives the patient a theory with which to listen to their body to figure out their biochemical individuality as related to a treatment of their disease.



Any disease that has symptoms of inflammation, which are mediated by free radicals, cannot help but be benefited by eliminating those free radicals as much as possible with massive doses of ascorbate. When you use enough ascorbate, throwing away the vitamin C for the electrons carried, it is a matter of chemistry, not necessarily medicine, that the free radicals will be neutralized.



The immune system is very complex but to use the example of antibody exclusion, antibodies are made by B cells in utero and after. When a new B cell develops it takes on a random combination that determines the shape of the receptor site of the antibody it makes. These B cells try to match chemicals on the surface of cells. When an immature B cell matches something it dies. When a mature B cell matches something, it multiplies and produces antibodies of that shape. This is called antibody exclusion and is one of the reasons why antibodies do not ordinarily attack a person’s own cells. When the person is 100% well, their antibodies will not attack the person’s own cells. However, when a person is sick, making many free radicals, these free radicals increase the affinity of the antibodies for their antigen and may cause the antibodies to fit some shape which is not a perfect fit but a close fit.



One of the purposes of antibodies is to mop up dead or diseased cells. Remember that the antibodies and the B cells making them are extracellular and only have tried to fit shapes on the surfaces of cells. Antibodies could fit some of the chemicals in the interior of cells. Therefore, when a cell leaks, for whatever reason, certain chemicals from the interior of cells, certain antibodies may attack that cell.



The other thing is that certain injuries like from chemicals, etc., may alter the shape of chemicals on the surfaces of cells. This, especially in the oxidative redox potential of the injured area, may cause the cross reaction of antibodies on these changed cells.



So, now an infection, allergy, injury, chemical reaction, etc.;, may cause damage to cells and cause antibodies to attack. For example, suppose the person has a condition, like candida, EBV, HHV6, and various other stresses, that results in the release of lots of free radicals, These free radical up regulate the immune system. It is obvious that massive doses of ascorbate at this point may down regulate the immune system by eliminating free radicals in such a way as that the following may be prevented.



First step



The person may have a hidden or not so hidden allergy to something like milk. The immune system may then produce antibodies to milk that are similar in shape to the chemicals on the surfaces of the synovial lining of joints. The shape would not be exact because antibody exclusion would have prevented the formation of B cells making that shaped antibody. However, if the shape is close enough, with the increased affinity of antibodies in this oxidative redox potential situation, the antibodies will attack the synovial lining of the joints. Maybe some previous injury to the joint or some stress increases the oxidative redox potential in a particular joint and that joint becomes inflamed first.



At this early point, in this example, an absolutely milk free diet may stop all this. Massive doses of ascorbate would obviously help by reducing the oxidative redox potential. I saw a patient 3 months ago who had a diagnosis of rheumatoid arthritis by a local immunologist 10 years ago. She, on her own, discovered when she ate no red meat or milk products that the arthritis went away. She has been in total remission for 10 years. The immunologists I know were not interested in discussing the case.



Second step



With this injury to the synovial cells, they start leaking chemicals from their interior to the outside where antibodies can match them. In the possible case being discussed, the autoimmune reaction may take on a life of its own and perpetuate itself even though the person stops any milk. Antibodies build up in numbers and their affinity increases because of the increasing oxidative redox potential. Then, if other joints have not been involved before, they may become involved now because maybe some of the chemicals from the interior of the cells are on the surface in minute amounts but never before enough to cause a noticeable reaction. Now with the increasing numbers of antibodies and the increased oxidative redox potential, more joints become involved.



At this point, the case is not so easy to put into remission but it may be that massive doses of ascorbate, maybe even intravenously, plus eliminating the original problem (in this case milk) may throw the person into remission.



Other Problems



I find that most of the time other problems such as candida, and other food and chemical sensitivities, and leaky gut frequently get involved. All of these have to be treated. Antiyeast programs, no sugar, low carbohydrate diet, elimination of all things the patient is sensitive to, support with large amount of vitamins, minerals, essential fats, and amino acids are necessary. With Sjögren’s syndrome use in addition primrose oil. Bio-identical hormones, especially progesterone, can be helpful in osteoporosis.



I want to make special mention of nightshades (tomatoes, potatoes, egg plant, red, green, and yellow peppers, paprika and tobacco). Nightshades should be eliminated in everyone who has osteoarthritis of the fingers but they can be involved in other arthritis also. There is a relatively common genetic weakness in the ability to digest a toxin within the nightshades especially manifesting itself as one ages. If there is a genetic tendency to get lupus or rheumatoid arthritis, these diseases can be triggered by nightshades. I have seen this several times in lupus patients. The immunologists I know are not interested in this.



If standard medical treatments are used such as prednisone, methyltrexate, etc., massive doses of ascorbate plus other nutrients may augment their effects and reduce side reactions. It never hurts with any disease to eliminate as many of the free radicals as possible and reduce the oxidative redox potential.







Nightshades (Solanaceae species) are:



1. potato, the white potato

In some baby foods, potato starch or potato flour in

some breads, doughnuts, biscuits, candies, cookies and

in soups. Sweet potatoes are ok. Yams are risky.



2. tomato

husk tomato, or ground cherry tomato, cherry, yellow,

and plum tomatoes, European bitter sweet, tree tomato,

tomatillo, strawberry tomato.



3. green pepper

tobasco pepper, garden pepper, cayenne, cherry, red

cluster, hot, bell, sweet, pimiento, Chili, long and

red peppers.

(Black or condiment pepper is OK because it is not a

nightshade.)



4. eggplant



5. Misc., garden huckleberry, Morelle, wonderberry and

sunberry, pepino, Cape gooseberry.



6. Tobacco, belladonna, atropine and scopolamine.



Childers NF, Russo GM. The Nightshades and Health. Horticultural

Publications, Sumerset Press, Somerville, N.J., 1977. I think this

book is out of print but you might find it on an old book search

site on the internet.





.



MEDICAL PAPERS PUBLISHED RELATED TO VITAMIN C



1. Cathcart RF. Clinical trial of vitamin C. Letter to the Editor, Medical Tribune, June 25, 1975.



2. Cathcart RF. The method of determining proper doses of vitamin C for the treatment of diseases by titrating to bowel tolerance. The Australian Nurses Journal 9(4):9‑13, Mar 1980.



3. Cathcart RF. The method of determining proper doses of vitamin C for the treatment of disease by titrating to bowel tolerance. J Orthomolecular Psychiatry 10:125‑132, 1981.



4. Cathcart RF. Vitamin C: titrating to bowel tolerance, an ascorbemia, and acute induced scurvy. Medical Hypotheses 7:1359‑1376, 1981.



5. Cathcart RF. C‑vitaminbehandling till tarmintolerans vid infektioner och allergi. Biologisk Medicin 3:6‑8, 1983.



6. Cathcart RF. Vitamin C: titrating to bowel tolerance, anascorbemia, and acute induced scurvy. Let's Live (Japan) 16:9, Nov 1983.



7. Cathcart, R.F. Vitamin C: the nontoxic, nonrate-limited, antioxidant free radical scavenger. Medical Hypotheses, 18:61-77, 1985.



8. Cathcart, R.F. Vitamin C in the treatment of acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS). Medical Hypotheses, 14(4):423-433, Aug 1984.



9. Cathcart, R.F. The vitamin C treatment of allergy and the normally unprimed state of antibodies. Medical Hypotheses, 21(3):307-321, Nov 1986.



10. Cathcart, R.F. The Three Faces of Vitamin C. J. Orthomolecular Med. 7:4;197-200, 1993.






ehm il Loco,
alles goed? -ik krijg me een portie kwark, geen idee waarom- :headscratch: zeg ik es iets serieus....:huh:

[Il Loco]

ja daar zeg je wat
ik kwam dit es tegen:
The Ascorbate Effect in Infectious and Autoimmune Diseases



Robert F. Cathcart, M.D.

127 Second Street, #4

Los Altos, CA 94022

650-949-2822

http://www.orthomed.com





The vitamin C effects are all the usual effects of the usual small doses of vitamin C and also the effects of the moderate and usual high doses of the vitamin C. The ascorbate effect is where massive doses of vitamin C are used where we are mostly throwing away the vitamin C for the electrons carried. With massive amounts of ascorbate it is possible to neutralize the massive amounts of free radicals generated mostly by the damage to mitochondria of infectious diseases, allergies, and injuries. Under most conditions the electrons carried by free radical scavengers come from the metabolism of glucose in the mitochondria. The amount of electrons from this source, when the mitochondria are not damaged, are sufficient when we are well to neutralize the free radicals of living. However, when we are sick and especially where the mitochondria are damaged, the free radicals overwhelm the mitochondrial ability to make electrons available. In these cases vitamin C in massive amounts can be the source of the necessary numbers of electrons to eliminate most of the free radicals of diseases. The ordinary doses of vitamin C, vitamin E, beta carotene, etc. cannot suffice. Any inflammation is evidence that the free radicals have not been adequately eliminated.



In 1969, I discovered that the amount of ascorbic acid tolerated orally without loosening of stools (a benign diarrhea) was somewhat proportional to the free radical toxicity of the condition being treated. The sicker a person was, the more ascorbic acid they would tolerate orally without it causing diarrhea. In a person with an otherwise normal GI tract when they were well, would tolerate 5 to 15 grams of ascorbic acid orally in divided doses without diarrhea. With a mild cold 30 to 60 grams; with a bad cold, 100 grams; with a flu, 150 grams; and with mononucleosis, viral pneumonia, etc. 200 grams or more of ascorbic acid would be tolerated orally without diarrhea. The process of finding what dose will cause diarrhea and will eliminate the acute symptoms, I call titrating to bowel tolerance.



When at the peak of the cold it is possible to take 100 grams of ascorbate in divided doses in 24 hours, I call it a 100 Gram Cold.



Sodium ascorbate intravenously never causes diarrhea in any dose. The diarrhea of ascorbic acid taken orally is caused by a hypertonic situation in the rectum. Intravenous sodium ascorbate actually increases bowel tolerance to ascorbic acid orally if administered at the same time.



The ascorbate effect is a threshold effect. Symptoms are usually neutralized when a dose of about 90% or more of bowel tolerance is reached with oral ascorbic acid. Intravenous sodium ascorbate is about 2 ½ times more powerful than ascorbic acid by mouth and since for all practical purposes huge doses of sodium ascorbate are non toxic, whatever dose necessary to eliminate free radical driven symptoms should be given.



The mathematical formulas that describe redox potential involve logarithms. Logarithms go low, low, low and then rapidly go high. The ascorbate effect acts at a threshold dose as would be anticipated from the logarithms in the formula when a reducing redox potential is forced into the oxidized tissues involved in the disease.



Example or the Common Cold



Most people have had the experience of feeling that they are catching a cold one evening but then wake up the next morning all well. What has happened here is that either antibodies from a previous cold wipe out the virus, or the white cells in the nose and throat destroy the virus by phagocytosis. These white cells need a little vitamin
C to perform phagocytosis. If the virus damages enough mitochondria in the nose and throat to produce enough free radicals to destroy all the vitamin C then the white cells shut down and that is when you wake up knowing you will be sick for a week or so. A condition of acute induced scurvy exists in the nose and throat.



Small doses of vitamin C taken as a maintenance dose will prevent a certain percentage of colds because this acute induced scurvy is harder to induce.; Once the free radical cascade is induced in the nose and throat small and moderate doses of vitamin will not cure the cold. However, moderate doses will prevent the spread of the acute induced scurvy into the sinuses, ears, and bronchial tubes so complications will be prevented. It is interesting to note than moderate doses by reducing the free radicals systemically will slow down the production of new antibodies; therefore, the basic, uncomplicated mild disease, unsick condition, will last a little longer than an uncomplicated untreated cold.



However, if massive doses, (usually bowel tolerance doses of ascorbic acid will suffice, but not always, sometimes intravenous sodium ascorbate is necessary) are driven into the nose and throat sufficient to neutralize the free radicals and eliminate the acute induced scurvy in the nose and throat, the white cells come out fighting mad and destroy the virus.



Humeral Immunity Reduced by Massive Amounts of Ascorbate



Massive doses of ascorbate augment cellular immunity while reducing humeral immunity. Clinically, the affinity of antibodies for their antigen is augmented by free radicals or an oxidative redox potential. I hypothesize that the single disulfide bond that holds the light chain of the antibody to the heavy chain is strengthened in an oxidative redox potential. Single disulfide bonds similarly hold all the other receptor sites of the immune system together.



I further hypothesize that the immune system receptor sites are under some normal stress and that under a reducing redox potential there is more of a tendency for the disulfide bond to break into two sulfhydryls which incapacitates the antigen bonding site. This would be a simple, neat mechanism whereby the humeral immune system would be turned off when there was no injury to the body. Any injury to cells would damage mitochondria, produce free radicals, induce an oxidative redox potential and turn on the immune system. While it appears from all the scientific work done on the immune system, its turn on is more complicated than this hypothesis, this hypothesis would explain many of the clinical effects of massive doses of ascorbate.



This hypothesis would explain why symptoms of hay fever, asthma and anaphylaxis are blocked or ameliorated by massive doses of ascorbate. It is pointed out that when a person is given penicillin or other antibiotics, they are sick and have oxidative redox potential in various parts of the body. This oxidative redox potential turns on the antibodies and the penicillin, or etc., can be recognized as a foreign body. In my experience, massive doses of ascorbate given along with penicillin prevent the anaphylactic and other allergic reactions to penicillin.



Ascorbate Treatment of Viral Hepatitis



In my experience acute viral hepatitis, A, B, C, non AB, etc., are all cured by massive amounts of ascorbate given over a few days intravenously. Chronic viral hepatitis is a different story. It is such a different story that something other that just a continuing viral infection must be going on. I think it is possible that chronic liver damage releases chemicals from the interior of the liver cells that cause an autoimmune like situation to be turned on. Chronic hepatitis, like that diagnosed as chronic hepatitis C, can be vastly ameliorated by continuing high doses of ascorbic acid by mouth, alpha lipoic acid (thank you Bert Berkson), selenium, vitamin E, silymarin, and strict restriction of sugar.



Chronic Fatigue Syndrome



I practiced medicine in Incline Village, Nevada between 1970 and 1980. There I saw many mononucleosis and bad flu cases. All responded to massive doses of ascorbate. I never saw an acute viral disease develop into chronic fatigue. Shortly after I left Incline, the chronic fatigue syndrome was identified by Dr Paul Cheney in 1983. A friend, the dentist in Incline, told me that none of my old massive vitamin C takers got chronic fatigue syndrome. I admit that this observation is not hard science but it is interesting.



Chronic fatigue syndrome is ameliorated by continuing bowel tolerance doses of ascorbic acid but these patients must be worked up for candida, parasites, food and chemical sensitivities, hypothyroidism, T4 resistence, etc., and treated appropriately. The nutritional program should include no sugar, low carbohydrates, elimination of all foods they are allergic to, chemicals, zinc, manganese, chromium, selenium, cod liver oil, vitamin E, multiple Bs, sometimes IM B12, folic acid and multiple Bs, along with the massive doses of C.



Ebola and Other Hemorrhagic Fevers, Nipah Virus and Etc.



All of these diseases produce massive amounts of free radicals. These hemorrhagic fevers are examples of probably 500 gram diseases. These diseases are so toxic, produce so many free radicals, that they rapidly produce not only a localized acute induced scurvy but a systemic induced scurvy. Shortly. collagen fibers begin to break down and bleeding is induced throughout the body. These cases must be treated with massive amount of sodium ascorbate intravenously immediately at the beginning of the disease. The rate of administration should be rapidly increased until the fever and other acute symptoms are diminished. My guess at a starting dose would be at a rate of at least 240 grams of sodium ascorbate per 24 hours. Do not be cheap. Give them vitamin E, B vitamins, zinc, manganese, chromium, selenium, EPA, DHA, etc. I have never treated a hemorrhagic fever case.



SARS is just another flu virus, possibly more toxic than most flues so give them intravenous sodium ascorbate. Probably 120 grams of sodium ascorbate intravenously per 24 hours would do it but give more according to the symptoms. I have treated at lease a thousand cases of flu and never so much as hospitalize one case.



Distemper and Kennel Fever



Although dogs are ascorbate producing animals, it is possible that a very toxic disease will overcome their ability to produce ascorbate. Wendell Belfield, DVM, of San Jose, CA has been curing dogs of distemper and kennel fever for 20 years with massive doses of sodium ascorbate intravenously. The dog just needs to be helped out for a few days with the intravenous and then he takes over himself.



Poliomyelitis



The first physician who used massive amounts of sodium ascorbate intravenously on serious viral diseases was Fred Klenner, M.D. of Reidsville, North Carolina. He published curing 60 cases of polio out of 60 cases with intravenous C. See Southern Medicine and Surgery, July 1949, p. 209. The whole article is on my website http://www.orthomed.com/polio.htm



Bacterial Infections



Bacterial infections cause symptoms, suppress the immune system, and cause allergic reactions to antibiotics by way of free radicals. While these diseases should be treated with the appropriate antibiotics, they should also be treated with massive doses of ascorbate. Massive doses of ascorbate clinically seem to broaden the spectrum of activity of antibiotics against resistant bacteria.



Autoimmune Diseases



My experience with some autoimmune diseases, particularly lupus, is that ascorbate in massive doses is very helpful. The following is my theory as to why. This theory involves many simplifications and probably some ideas that turn out inaccurate but are a way of thinking about the problem of autoimmune diseases that explain the role of massive doses of ascorbate. It also gives the patient a theory with which to listen to their body to figure out their biochemical individuality as related to a treatment of their disease.



Any disease that has symptoms of inflammation, which are mediated by free radicals, cannot help but be benefited by eliminating those free radicals as much as possible with massive doses of ascorbate. When you use enough ascorbate, throwing away the vitamin C for the electrons carried, it is a matter of chemistry, not necessarily medicine, that the free radicals will be neutralized.



The immune system is very complex but to use the example of antibody exclusion, antibodies are made by B cells in utero and after. When a new B cell develops it takes on a random combination that determines the shape of the receptor site of the antibody it makes. These B cells try to match chemicals on the surface of cells. When an immature B cell matches something it dies. When a mature B cell matches something, it multiplies and produces antibodies of that shape. This is called antibody exclusion and is one of the reasons why antibodies do not ordinarily attack a person’s own cells. When the person is 100% well, their antibodies will not attack the person’s own cells. However, when a person is sick, making many free radicals, these free radicals increase the affinity of the antibodies for their antigen and may cause the antibodies to fit some shape which is not a perfect fit but a close fit.



One of the purposes of antibodies is to mop up dead or diseased cells. Remember that the antibodies and the B cells making them are extracellular and only have tried to fit shapes on the surfaces of cells. Antibodies could fit some of the chemicals in the interior of cells. Therefore, when a cell leaks, for whatever reason, certain chemicals from the interior of cells, certain antibodies may attack that cell.



The other thing is that certain injuries like from chemicals, etc., may alter the shape of chemicals on the surfaces of cells. This, especially in the oxidative redox potential of the injured area, may cause the cross reaction of antibodies on these changed cells.



So, now an infection, allergy, injury, chemical reaction, etc.;, may cause damage to cells and cause antibodies to attack. For example, suppose the person has a condition, like candida, EBV, HHV6, and various other stresses, that results in the release of lots of free radicals, These free radical up regulate the immune system. It is obvious that massive doses of ascorbate at this point may down regulate the immune system by eliminating free radicals in such a way as that the following may be prevented.



First step



The person may have a hidden or not so hidden allergy to something like milk. The immune system may then produce antibodies to milk that are similar in shape to the chemicals on the surfaces of the synovial lining of joints. The shape would not be exact because antibody exclusion would have prevented the formation of B cells making that shaped antibody. However, if the shape is close enough, with the increased affinity of antibodies in this oxidative redox potential situation, the antibodies will attack the synovial lining of the joints. Maybe some previous injury to the joint or some stress increases the oxidative redox potential in a particular joint and that joint becomes inflamed first.



At this early point, in this example, an absolutely milk free diet may stop all this. Massive doses of ascorbate would obviously help by reducing the oxidative redox potential. I saw a patient 3 months ago who had a diagnosis of rheumatoid arthritis by a local immunologist 10 years ago. She, on her own, discovered when she ate no red meat or milk products that the arthritis went away. She has been in total remission for 10 years. The immunologists I know were not interested in discussing the case.



Second step



With this injury to the synovial cells, they start leaking chemicals from their interior to the outside where antibodies can match them. In the possible case being discussed, the autoimmune reaction may take on a life of its own and perpetuate itself even though the person stops any milk. Antibodies build up in numbers and their affinity increases because of the increasing oxidative redox potential. Then, if other joints have not been involved before, they may become involved now because maybe some of the chemicals from the interior of the cells are on the surface in minute amounts but never before enough to cause a noticeable reaction. Now with the increasing numbers of antibodies and the increased oxidative redox potential, more joints become involved.



At this point, the case is not so easy to put into remission but it may be that massive doses of ascorbate, maybe even intravenously, plus eliminating the original problem (in this case milk) may throw the person into remission.



Other Problems



I find that most of the time other problems such as candida, and other food and chemical sensitivities, and leaky gut frequently get involved. All of these have to be treated. Antiyeast programs, no sugar, low carbohydrate diet, elimination of all things the patient is sensitive to, support with large amount of vitamins, minerals, essential fats, and amino acids are necessary. With Sjögren’s syndrome use in addition primrose oil. Bio-identical hormones, especially progesterone, can be helpful in osteoporosis.



I want to make special mention of nightshades (tomatoes, potatoes, egg plant, red, green, and yellow peppers, paprika and tobacco). Nightshades should be eliminated in everyone who has osteoarthritis of the fingers but they can be involved in other arthritis also. There is a relatively common genetic weakness in the ability to digest a toxin within the nightshades especially manifesting itself as one ages. If there is a genetic tendency to get lupus or rheumatoid arthritis, these diseases can be triggered by nightshades. I have seen this several times in lupus patients. The immunologists I know are not interested in this.



If standard medical treatments are used such as prednisone, methyltrexate, etc., massive doses of ascorbate plus other nutrients may augment their effects and reduce side reactions. It never hurts with any disease to eliminate as many of the free radicals as possible and reduce the oxidative redox potential.







Nightshades (Solanaceae species) are:



1. potato, the white potato

In some baby foods, potato starch or potato flour in

some breads, doughnuts, biscuits, candies, cookies and

in soups. Sweet potatoes are ok. Yams are risky.



2. tomato

husk tomato, or ground cherry tomato, cherry, yellow,

and plum tomatoes, European bitter sweet, tree tomato,

tomatillo, strawberry tomato.



3. green pepper

tobasco pepper, garden pepper, cayenne, cherry, red

cluster, hot, bell, sweet, pimiento, Chili, long and

red peppers.

(Black or condiment pepper is OK because it is not a

nightshade.)



4. eggplant



5. Misc., garden huckleberry, Morelle, wonderberry and

sunberry, pepino, Cape gooseberry.



6. Tobacco, belladonna, atropine and scopolamine.



Childers NF, Russo GM. The Nightshades and Health. Horticultural

Publications, Sumerset Press, Somerville, N.J., 1977. I think this

book is out of print but you might find it on an old book search

site on the internet.





.



MEDICAL PAPERS PUBLISHED RELATED TO VITAMIN C



1. Cathcart RF. Clinical trial of vitamin C. Letter to the Editor, Medical Tribune, June 25, 1975.



2. Cathcart RF. The method of determining proper doses of vitamin C for the treatment of diseases by titrating to bowel tolerance. The Australian Nurses Journal 9(4):9‑13, Mar 1980.



3. Cathcart RF. The method of determining proper doses of vitamin C for the treatment of disease by titrating to bowel tolerance. J Orthomolecular Psychiatry 10:125‑132, 1981.



4. Cathcart RF. Vitamin C: titrating to bowel tolerance, an ascorbemia, and acute induced scurvy. Medical Hypotheses 7:1359‑1376, 1981.



5. Cathcart RF. C‑vitaminbehandling till tarmintolerans vid infektioner och allergi. Biologisk Medicin 3:6‑8, 1983.



6. Cathcart RF. Vitamin C: titrating to bowel tolerance, anascorbemia, and acute induced scurvy. Let's Live (Japan) 16:9, Nov 1983.



7. Cathcart, R.F. Vitamin C: the nontoxic, nonrate-limited, antioxidant free radical scavenger. Medical Hypotheses, 18:61-77, 1985.



8. Cathcart, R.F. Vitamin C in the treatment of acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS). Medical Hypotheses, 14(4):423-433, Aug 1984.



9. Cathcart, R.F. The vitamin C treatment of allergy and the normally unprimed state of antibodies. Medical Hypotheses, 21(3):307-321, Nov 1986.



10. Cathcart, R.F. The Three Faces of Vitamin C. J. Orthomolecular Med. 7:4;197-200, 1993.






ehm il Loco,
alles goed? -ik krijg me een portie kwark, geen idee waarom- :headscratch: zeg ik es iets serieus....:huh:

Hahaha:laugh:

[ataraxia]

Hmmm... Tja, ik weet nooit zo goed wat ik van die vrije radicalen hype moet denken....

[FOCUS]

ja maar,
een overdosis vitamine c komt er uit via de normale weg en veroorzaakt niet meer dan een 'volumineuze' ontlasting :laugh:

dus t kan geen kwaad om het te proberen als je in een ontstekingsfase zit

[ataraxia]

Ja, behalve dan dat ik niet graag experimenteer met mijn toch al zwakke darmkanaaltje (crohn), zou wel eens een van de regen in de drup verhaal kunnen zijn... (mag om die reden ook al geen nsaid's. Is wel wat anders dan vitamine c, maar toch).

Maar thanks voor het meedenken :)

[Judas]

Knoflook is een wondermiddel.

[ataraxia]

En volgens de Allerhande een exotisch ingredient :laugh:

[FOCUS]

ah ja,
met crohn weet je waarschijnlijk zelf het beste wat je kan verdragen en wat niet?
ik zou echt niet weten of je dan spijt krijgt van zo'n vitc bruistablet.
Better safe than sorry :)

[Il Loco]

hahahaha

Nee maar dat vitamine C verhaal lijkt me weird.

Maar goed, beetje multi vitaminen nemen kan nooit kwaad.

Net ontstekings remmers opgehaald, dus die kan ik zo tijdens het avond eten in nemen.

We shall see

[FOCUS]

dr trainde vroeger bij mij in de gym een oude knakker die zwoer bij knoflook
nam twee teentjes knoflook bij het ontbijt
ik heb nooit enige vampier gezien bij hem in de buurt
niet zo gek, want de lucht was niet te harden

[Jean]

Ik zit nu in mijn 2e jaar van opleiding fysiotherapie.
En zou je als advies geven om wel door te trainen onder geleide van pijn.
En vooral veel oefeningen doen om de mobiliteit van je rug zoveel mogelijk te behouden.
Is het misschien ook een idee om contact op te nemen met een fysiotherapeut?

Gr. Jan

[Judas]

dr trainde vroeger bij mij in de gym een oude knakker die zwoer bij knoflook
nam twee teentjes knoflook bij het ontbijt
ik heb nooit enige vampier gezien bij hem in de buurt
niet zo gek, want de lucht was niet te harden

Heerlijk, ik eet ook 's ochtends vaak 2 teentjes bij gebakken eieren. En 's avonds een bol knoflook uit de oven. Moet je ook eens proberen.

[Il Loco]

Ik zit nu in mijn 2e jaar van opleiding fysiotherapie.
En zou je als advies geven om wel door te trainen onder geleide van pijn.
En vooral veel oefeningen doen om de mobiliteit van je rug zoveel mogelijk te behouden.
Is het misschien ook een idee om contact op te nemen met een fysiotherapeut?

Gr. Jan

Dus gewoon doorgaan toch, ook met de deadlifts en squats gewoon?

[Judas]

Il Loco, gappie van me is fysio, zal hem zo vragen of hij hier een kijkje neemt en advies geeft.

[FOCUS]

Heerlijk, ik eet ook 's ochtends vaak 2 teentjes bij gebakken eieren. En 's avonds een bol knoflook uit de oven. Moet je ook eens proberen.


tellen gamba's in knoflook ook?
want die heb net verorberd en die zijn voor herhaling vatbaar :thup:

[Il Loco]

Net geprobeerd te trainen, Squats en DL waren niet te doen, ja van die halve reps, maar echt goed door buigen was niet mogelijk.

Dus toen maar wat bench presses overhead presses gedaan gewoon...

Doe dit weekje rustig aan en kijk dan of ik volgende week wel weer gewoon kan beginnen.

[thefxr]

Ik zit thuis met een onsteking in de onderrug/heup gewricht, komt door de ziekte van brechterev wat erg heerst in mijn familie.

Fucked up maar goed, is het verstandig om door te gaan met kracht trainen, squaten, deadliften, etc..

Of is het beter om rustiger aan te doen en wellicht iets anders te proberen voor nu...?

ik schat in ,alleen beweging maar geen gewichten

[Socra]

ik schat in ,alleen beweging maar geen gewichten

Wat een kutadvies. Gast, je hebt geen idee waar je over praat, dus zwijg dan gewoon.

Om eerlijk te zijn, Il Loco, denk ik dat een 'gewone' fysiotherapeut ook weinig voor je kan betekenen. Het is behoorlijk ingewikkeld, heb ik inmiddels via Ata door. Die van haar had zelf ontstekingsklachten, en die wist het dus nog niet eens precies. Denk dat je beter op dat Bechterev forum kan kijken en spreken met mensen die hier echt in gespecialiseerd zijn.

Succes, iig.

[Socra]

http://www.bechterewforum.nl/viewtopic.php?t=515

[O11]

Ja, behalve dan dat ik niet graag experimenteer met mijn toch al zwakke darmkanaaltje (crohn), zou wel eens een van de regen in de drup verhaal kunnen zijn... (mag om die reden ook al geen nsaid's. Is wel wat anders dan vitamine c, maar toch).

Maar thanks voor het meedenken :)

Je bent een beetje een wrak, hmmm?

[O11]

ik schat in ,alleen beweging maar geen gewichten

Wat een kutadvies. Gast, je hebt geen idee waar je over praat, dus zwijg dan gewoon.


BOOYAKASHA!!!

[thefxr]

Wat een kutadvies. Gast, je hebt geen idee waar je over praat, dus zwijg dan gewoon.


kan je even niet paar dagen optieven? jij weet niet waarover je praat!:finger:

[thefxr]

BOOYAKASHA!!!

ik versta geen apentaal.

[ataraxia]

Je bent een beetje een wrak, hmmm?

Yup. Kutgenen...

[FOCUS]

Wat een kutadvies. Gast, je hebt geen idee waar je over praat, dus zwijg dan gewoon.



als we dit lousy advies zouden opvolgen, dan zou het wel erg stil zijn op dit forum :whistling:

[chief108]

dan zou het heel erg stil zijn op het hele internet...

Yup. Kutgenen...

kusje op je kutgenen

en goed gevonden Socra!

[Socra]

als we dit lousy advies zouden opvolgen, dan zou het wel erg stil zijn op dit forum :whistling:

Topics als dit kunnen over het algemeen niet kort genoeg zijn.

(maar hou ons op de hoogte, Il Loco... :))

[chief108]

ben ook niet zo van de "medisch advies vragen op een forum wat er niets mee te maken heeft" threads
je krijgt 98% domme antwoorden van mensen die sowieso wat denken te moeten te zeggen
en 2% antwoorden van mensen die wel graag willen helpen, maar alleen snel wat stukjes over dat onderwerp gevonden hebben via internet

als je ziet hoeveel de medische specialisten zelf al aan te lopen kloten...
dan kan je weinig zinvols verwachten van mensen die reageren, hoe goed bedoelt dan ook, in een "medisch advies vragen op een forum wat er niets mee te maken heeft" thread
ga dan iig nog naar een "lotgenoten forum"
waar mensen zitten die hetzelfde hebben en hebben meegemaakt
ook daar is een boel crap natuurlijk
maar ze hebben iig ervaringsverhalen waar je wat aan zou kunnen hebben

[FOCUS]

jammer dat je dan weer vooral de horrorverhalen hoort :frankie:

maar inderdaad internet is trash als het gaat over medische zooi


-alhoewel het kopen van medicijnen zonder recept wel zn voordelen heeft :brow: -

[chief108]

:brow:

[Il Loco]

thanks voor de link Socra.

Heb dus gisteren onstekings remmers gekregen (Arthrotec). En het gaat nu al weer een heel stuk beter. Dus hoop dat ik morgen wel weer kan trainen.:)

[thefxr]

als je ziet hoeveel de medische specialisten zelf al aan te lopen kloten...
dan kan je weinig zinvols verwachten van mensen die reageren, hoe goed bedoelt dan ook, in een "medisch advies vragen op een forum wat er niets mee te maken heeft"

Dat is het nu juist, als Il Loco, dit aan 10 fysiotherapeuten zou vragen, dan krijg je verschillende antwoorden.
btw, kan dit niet genezen worden door stamceltherapie?

[Il Loco]

Niks stamcel therapie

Doe mij maar titanium foam gewrichten, yeah baby!

[chief108]

titanium foam FTW!!!

[FOCUS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umXkRe5tnUY

[FOCUS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLiNyglOyJY

[Il Loco]

Nou... al de tijd fijn weer door kunnen trainen, ook weer omhoog gegaan met gewichten...

Maar vandaag is het weer terug bij af... Komt ook omdat ik door de medicijnen ontzettende maagpijn kreeg, en er dus nog maar 1 x , ipv 2 x per dag inneem.

Dus morgen maar weer terug na de doktor, en vervelen vanavond...:bash:

[FOCUS]

klote man
ff stapje terug doen dan maar
nog wat meer geduld

[Socra]

Hoe is het nu?

[Wiseguy]

Ik had vaak mijn schouder uit de kom. Zei de dokter ja moet je je spieren gaan trainen. Dat was een jaar of 5. Ging vorig jaar mijn schouder uit de kom hadden lukte het zelfs met 3 man niet om mijn schouder terug te krijgen omdat ik teveel tegenkracht zetten. Moest aan de morfine en er werden gewichten aan mijn arm gehangen om het terug te krijgen.

Moraal van het verhaal is dat ik een beest ben en dat sterkere spieren niet altijd gunstiger zijn.

[HUNEBED-BOUWER]

Aarde aan Focus

[HUNEBED-BOUWER]

Zal ie ook op de Es geweest zijn?

[d4nd3l10n]

Zilveren draak

[Judas]

Chasing the dragon.